Bar Room Fighting

After a good hour long shower to scrub off the gunk and camo from our two week stay in the field at Ft. Drum, my buddy Mike and I had set out to the local watering hole to relax with a cold one.

Now Mike was one of those all-around "good old boys" from Texas and had a strong sense of right and wrong and standing up for people was in his blood.

Admirable, yes...but was seriously put to the test that night and some hard lessons were learned.

Sitting at the bar, I could sense Mike getting a little agitated. When I asked what was bothering him, he said that he had been listening to the guy behind him giving the waitress a hard time and making sexual comments that she had been trying nicely to avoid.

I told him to let it go but Mike was always ready to put on his "white hat" when the need was there. He turned around and finally asked the guy to "cut the waitress some slack and just enjoy his drink." Well, anyone as drunk and obnoxious as this guy would be hard pressed NOT to puff out his chest and, while telling Mike to "mind his own f*&%ing business!", started advancing.

Mike saw it coming and it wasn't hard to meet the stumbling idiot halfway and land one on his chin to send him reeling backwards over a chair.

It looked like the guy was out of the fight and Mike had decided he had taught him a good lesson, one that he'd never forget.

That was until a glass of beer missed Mike's head by about 2.7 inches as he was turning away! The fight was on and the guy's adrenaline had kicked in...HARD!

He tackled Mike at the legs and the two of them were soon tangled up on the floor as people were scrambling to get out of the way.

The fight didn't last long because the bouncers were already on the move and were able to pull them apart. In the end, we were all escorted out of the club, slightly bruised, one damsel out of distress, and some valuable lessons learned by Mike.

Here's my view (and I'd like to hear YOURS! Leave a comment on the blog!)

1. Be sure your decision to START a fight is based upon "need". That is, to stop an actual attack on an innocent person or to defend yourself in a serious "beat-or-get beaten" or "kill-or-be killed" scenerio.

2.) Don't start something you're not fully prepared to follow through on. If you're not completely committed to leaving someone in a crippled mess at your feet, then you're not yet prepared to fight. You may start out trying to do "minimal damage" but the other person (as well as 2 or 3 of his friends) may be MUCH more committed to teaching YOU a lesson in return!

3.) Once you make the fateful decision to strike, DON'T STOP!

Using the techniques many of you have learned from whatever style of fighting system you're training in, it only takes 5-7 seconds to strike 5 devastating targets on an attacker's body. Assume you need to USE THEM ALL, but don't be surprised if he's completely out of the game after 1-3.

Just BE SURE he's out of the game! Be aware enough to tell when he won't get back up and when one more strike would be "excessive".

You don't want to kill someone unless it's a life-or-death situation.

4.) Remember these rules: STRIKE FIRST - STRIKE HARD - STRIKE REPEATEDLY!

5.) Don't stand around to admire your work!

You never know when the attacker's friends will reach out and give him a hand by hitting you over the back of the head.

Immediately scan the entire area for other attacks heading in your direction. If there are...take them out! If not, know where the exits are and get the hell out of Dodge!

More from Jeff at:
- www.CloseQuartersCombat.com
- www.AdvancedMassBuilding.com
- www.OptimumAnabolics.com
- www.CombatTheFat.com

Jeff Anderson is a 10 year veteran of the U.S. Army, a Master Fitness Trainer, and Master Instructor of Close Quarters Combat self defense. A full time fitness and self defense author, Jeff has trained thousands of men and women in the practical application of advanced military fitness methods as well as close combat tactics for "real life" self defense.

Comments

[#1 Posted by: Mark Withrow]

Jeff,
Sorry, but I've got to disagree with you about the wisdom of public brawling.
As a prior-service Marine and 56-year old ex-oil field worker, I've seen more than my share of drunken bar fights. Unfortunately, I've also been a witness on two occasions when one of the guys was accidentally killed.
How, you ask? Well, certainly not from the direct effects of a well-landed jab or knock-out punch. No, in each case the damage was done by THE GROUND. Brawler #1 died in a waterfront pub in Aberdeen, Scotland, after his skull smacked the brass bar rail (died instantly, brain matter mixing in nicely with the beer and sawdust on the floor). Bad Boy #2 bought the farm after his head hit a curb on the street outside a bar in Rotterdam; I'll never forget the sound his skull made when it split open. Can you say "casaba melon"?
Let's face it: the hard ground (and other fixed objects) are the biggest danger. That's why boxing rings and fighting cages are so well padded, and head gear is used during work-outs.
Hope this keeps someone out of prison. Need more anecdotal evidence? Well, then, take a look at these real-life skull-crushing tragedies:
1. http://tinyurl.com/d6hjb9
2. http://tinyurl.com/cgsmxt & http://tinyurl.com/cgn4a3
3. http://tinyurl.com/dyktax
4. http://tinyurl.com/cwa8zr
Semper Fi...Sgt. Mark

[#2 Posted by: coppola]

First, You did right by telling your buddy to let it go, no body can be be the "Hero" 24/7. I do think that all of your recent trouble could have been avoided by TELLING THE BOUNCERS! that is their gig, they handle any problem on that property, it is not up to you&your friend to play Lancealot. My Sensei would tell us chilvary died because it looked for to many fights.
Granted I have no doubt you can handle a couple of drunk townies, and you have always been responsible with your forum with the public. I completely agree with what adivce you give to someone in this situation, but people must keep in mind that nine times out of ten, it will not be fair! don't be surprised if dude's "boys" jump in, or the simple fact that a weapon could be involved at any time.
Also, to every one reading this PLEASE read up on what is considered self defense in what ever city you live/stationed in. You could very easily find yourself on the wrong side of the real fast.
Above all please be safe, and be responsible

[#3 Posted by: SGT STONE]

I would have to agree in part with the advise. Being stationed around the world courtesy of our Uncle Sam, I have seen a few brawls and been in a few myself. I would have to agree with Coppola in his advise as well as SGT Mikes. #1 CYA. #2 Be ready for a counter strike. #3 know your exits #4 get the bouncers involved.

Simple advise. As my Sensie told me...always walk on the lighted part of the street...or avoid entanglements if possible, but if you can't, be ready to defend and protect.

[#4 Posted by: Jeff Anderson]

GREAT comments guys! I'm glad to see that common sense really is "common" among the military.com patrons! ;-)

I often talk about the "unknown" factor in a real fight because I don't care if you're a pro Monkey Ninja Assassin, even one accidental blow can ruin your life...either sticking you in a wheelchair or a coffin, or even in jail as you stuck someone else in a wheelchair or coffin.

Having dealt with many gang fights in my line of work, I've seen how easily a skull gets crushed when some well-meaning defender steps in against a 5 bangers who decide to stomp away at him on the ground. Unless you're a psychic, you NEVER know the outcome of a fight...and should avoid one at all costs!

In fact, I'll be sharing another story with you about a very similar incident where EGO got in the way of street smarts...and cost someone dearly!

Keep the comments coming!

[#5 Posted by: Torch]

I don't know of any Sensei or instructor, who would encourage anyone to be in a place, where trouble can occur. I've been in bars, where we were lead out by lumberjacks & whalers(Bulldog Club-Labrador), biker groups(Dolphin Club-Kokomo, IN), and in bars(NAS Meridian), where I was told ahead of time to not say anything.
I have been instructed in different forms of martial arts, since age three, and at no time have I ever had to resort to practice my training on anyone in my 53 years.
Canvassing your surroundings or watering hole should take precedent over going just anywhere to have a drink. Local establishments, near military, should be off limits to anyone with intelligence, or choose a quieter confines, instead of places catering to good ole boys.
And by all means, never argue with a drunk!

[#6 Posted by: SGT STONE]

Roger that Torch....JUst stay home is the best defense. Thanks for the advice

[#7 Posted by: martin]

I am a pub manager in england been working bars for the last 10 years and in that time seen alot of bar fights.
I have say that your friend did not handle that situation well, that although the intention were noble agression on drunks is never the way forward being calm and strong body language works most of the time. This give you time to look at the character your confronting does he look like a fighter, broken nose scars or broken hands. If he doesnt have these he proberbly will not fight so there no need to be agrressive.
Notify the staff to deal with the problem they're thank you more for it than starting a punch up in the middle of the pub.

[#8 Posted by: Ric]

Fighting in bars over imagined slights is dumb and illegal. It's far better to leave before things get to that point, or go to a more civilized watering hole in the first place.

[#9 Posted by: CJ]

Having been around the world in many bars and seeing many fights I haven't seen many "good fights", ie. where the "bad guys" get handed it all and the "good guys" get free beer for life. Generally it all goes to sh*t with too many people getting hurt, including bystanders and the "good guys".

Also, having been in law enforcement for many years, those that throw the first punch always go to jail and many times both parties go to jail & the judge can sort it out. Then you have to explain how you were a "good guy" to your CO, while his recommendation for your next advancement is put on hold.

Just tell the bartender & bouncers, it's their problem & the cop's.

[#10 Posted by: Steve]

Listen up it is not a game when you are in a bar or a street fight there are no rules, time outs or perfect strikes.If you involved in an altercation discretion is the better part of valor. Plus are you ready for the legal problems that will be coming your way that could end your career.

[#11 Posted by: SGT. G]

DONT GET IN TOO A FIGHT THAT UR NOT WILLING TO FINISH ,,,,,,

[#12 Posted by: Diana]

So much talking about the fighting, but nothing much on the girl getting bothered by a drunk.

Marine Corps Spouse input: We need guys like Mike in this world. Guys who still have the belief that it's their job to look out for women like that waitress.

By no means am I suggesting that you kill people. But what would of happened if Mike didn't step in. Maybe the drunk would of took it way too far.

Who knows what would of happened, but I can tell you a lot of bad things wouldn't happen if people stepped up and did the right thing.

Now you might spend the night in jail for popping some guy at a bar, but I know in Mike's case he probably sleeps better at night knowing he did the right thing

[#13 Posted by: Ken McKinley]

Very few people go to the bar alone. Always be aware that if you are fighting one person then you are probably fighting at least 3 sooner or later.
Secoondly, most people would rather avoid the fight if they can save face, give whomever the opportunity to do just that, instead of punking them out, and chances are you will avoid the fight.

[#14 Posted by: Dan Dealy]

Jeff - Google "Self Defense and Martial Arts" and you'll find a lot of really good resources on the legal issues involved with "getting involved". Legally, your bud is lucky he's a) not in jail, b) paying the drunk dude big dollars for the rest of the drunk's life. THIS AIN"T THE BATTLEFIELD.

FIRST RULE OF BAR FIGHTING: DON'T.
SECOND RULE: DEFEND AND DISENGAGE (KNOW THE LIMITS).
THIRD RULE: DON'T TURN YOUR BACK (STUPID).
"Self defense" has limits, EXCEPT in the scenario of life threatening action on the part of the aggressor. No, a person doesn't necessarily have to wait to be hit or fired upon to engage defensively to protect life, family or property, but you better expect to have a legal defense team ready no matter what.

In this scenario, your buddy did all he legally could do after "asking" the drunk to leave the waitress alone. Because the drink missed, he still didn't have the legal standing to hit the guy. Your bud put the hammer on the guy first, so he was FIGHTING (NOT defending) and your buddy was the aggressor. STUPID. BAD HEADWORK. If it's one thing we in the military are taught, it's to use GOOD HEADWORK. Advising those who have ANY training in hand to hand, however slight, to jump in hard and not quit until the opponent is down and out or dead (again except in the case of life threatening situation)is to ask for a minimum of a manslaughter charge being levied in civilian court and about 12 UCMJ counts burying the individual's military AND civilian future.
There is a point at which the action goes from "defense" to "fight" and it's NEVER something any of us can see when we're engaged - unless we go running after the bad guys to continue the pound-down, that's definitely the wrong side of "defending", don't do it. Those with CQB training are going to have the toughest time in finding that stopping point, {probably}.
Your buddy "aggravated" the other party and could legally be found guilty of assault and battery. Ain't that the s(**? But it's the law.
If it's my family, I know it'll be tough for me to find that "limit" once the mean gene kicks in, so as a martial arts student and instructor, I am constantly studying and impressing on other students to learn the legalities.
Be safe, be tough. Don't turn your back.

[#15 Posted by: daverunner]

You guys forgot the first rule....mind your business and keep your mouth shut. Having been a defensive tactics instructor after many operational posts I have found that this is the best way to keep from either being killed or having to kill someone. I know several bouncers and they all take personal offense to anyone harrasing "their" waitressess. IOf she was that offended by the guy im sure all she had to do is ask one of the big guys to take care of it.

[#16 Posted by: daverunner]

Then again if it was your wife or your girl sometimes you just gotta crack the guy!

[#17 Posted by: Tom R]

22 years in the Military, and 10 years working security. This might help a bit. If it is your intention to start a fight fine. But if it is your intention to stop a fight. Then most of what you have stated is useless. Forget about fighting and think in terms of containment. Remember your take down moves, concentrate on taking down an individual not fighting them. Once you are in a fight all bets are off. Having had to break up hundreds of brawls I have found the one thing that keeps me from getting my ass completely beat down. I am not there to fight but to stop the fight. The best way to stop a fight is to never let it start. Learn to know how to read the signs and step in and stop it before it gets to the breaking point. Smashing a dude in the face feels good but usually it only escalates the situation rather than defuses it. This is where your take down training comes in. Concentrate on taking down and containing the combatant. This will do two things for you. It will stop the fight, and will keep the legation to the combatant rather than involve you in it. Last, regardless of your intentions, bar owners do not like people who tear up their establishments. Again, never think you are going into a fight, because in a fight you can loose. If you are going to do this, go into it as if it is a task, keep in mind what that task is, and stay with it. The first time you loose your cool and start fighting you have lost all your edge. And once more the best method to stopping a fight is to stop it long before it gets to that point. When I started cooling bars I was fortunate enough to have a very good mentor. His reasoning was this, "If you have to stop a fight, then you are not doing your job." If you go to a bar thinking that it is going to turn into a fight, then you deserve all that you get. I am 5' 7" 155 pounds. I have been cooling bars and breaking up fights for over 15 years. I am 52 years old and frankly I don't like getting the crap beat out of me. Think with your head, not your fist, think in terms of containing the situation not escalating the situation. Last, know your surroundings. Take time to understand what your obstacles are and how they can help or hinder you. By the way, a bar towel makes a better weapon than a beer bottle. It confuses the combatant, extends your reach, makes them pause and change tactics, and makes a great restraining device. When you react in a professional, calm manner, it sends an instant message to all around you. Just remember, no two situations are alike no two people are alike and regardless of how much you prepare there is always the chance that the dude you meet up with is out of his fricking mind and will kill you. Your last resort is physical contact, you most effective and useful tactic is still knowing how to stop it before it gets to fist.

[#18 Posted by: Diana]

Daverunner - Rock on for your second post!

[#19 Posted by: tbloggins]

I gotta wonder WTF Jeff was doing while all this was going on? Mr Ninja left his bud swing in the wind, then Monday morning quarterbacked the whole scenario?
Pfft. The only fair fight is the one your losing, and if your losing, your not fighting dirty enough.

[#20 Posted by: R2]

Dear Jeff, I read your story on Bar Fighting and I agree with it mostly. I too was in the Army 22 years as Master Fitness Trainer and Special Forces Unit where we did dirty deeds done dirt cheep and were taught to end a fight swiftly, silently and deadly. But you may find yourself on the other end of the fight also and having to defend your honor and bolstering annoying drunken comments. One example: I was staioned at Ft. Eustis, VA years ago and we just got back from playing Army in the field and me and some friends decided to go downtown Newport News and get a few cold beers. We found a quaint little bar on the strip and went inside to cool off. Well we got inside and noticed it was occupied by the "other" part of the military, Navy and Marines. After a few beverages my friends and I were loosening up a bit and feeling cocky. My friends started making jokes about the Navy uniform, Whity Tighty, etc etc. then he started in on the Marines by stating, "You act like the Army but your paycheck is signed by the Dept of the NAVY". Oh boy, that stared some heated arguements and the jokes went back and forth harmlessly. What broke the firestorm was when my friend yelled out...This bar is filled with nothing but Limp-wristed, Flute-Playing, Gerbal-Farmers! We three immediately surrounded our covered wagon circle back to back and prepared to defend ourselfs. There were flying bottles and beer splashing, fists flying, tables and chairs knocked over as we noticed they began to fight among themselfs. We somehow made it to the door and ran like hell. They were still too drunk to noticed who they were fighting. We still laugh about that incident to this day and remind ourselfs of some very important lessons learned off the battlefield: 1-Dont be a Ugly Arrogant American too proud not to get your ass beat, 2-Mind your own business unless your life or others, is being threatened, 3-Never start a fight in strange unfamiliar territory, 4-Never be on the receiving end of a ass-whipping, 5-Never attck an enemy in greater force than you are, 6-Respect all branches of service cause the Navy Seals did a hell of a job dealing with priates off of Somalia, 7- Even if the Marines are a branch of the Navy, they have "prettier" uniforms. LOL, But in reality now I am 51 and not so gung-ho but still can swat them off with my cane if needed. R2

[#21 Posted by: Nick Germann]

Well I am only 17 and have been in more than my fair share of school fights. I have no idea how similar they are to bar brawls. The one thing that I have been extremely proud of is not having to hurt anyone that I have gotten into a fight with. I have trained in Aikido since before I remember (I believe I was 4) and out of the 8 "physical altercations" I got into no one had more than a little bump on their head which goes into the whole stationary objects do more damage than you can deal. The short detail of it is when he went to grab me and put me in a choke hold I quickly reached behind and aimed at pulling him to the ground when his forehead hit the desk near him. He was completely fine just a little shocked that a 4' 10" 90 pound kid could take down his 5' 6" 150 pound so easily.
All in all I'm just saying that it is best not to mentally tag fights as fights, like what Tom R stated about the mental attitude of fighting someone. I have never had the idea in my mind that I was going to hurt these people who were challenging me and as my sensie would say that when you show that you are not going to hurt them they do not have as much trouble doing what you suggest, such as bringing them to the ground and pinning them or several other suggestions like throwing them out the door ;). Their are also several situations where just taking someone down is not going to stop the fight and don't get the wrong impression that I am saying never hurt anyone just that there is no need, unless it is life threatening or threatens your own bodily harm, to hurt someone
And again I have no idea how well this translates into bar brawls seeing as I have never been in one, but I just wanted to back up Tom a little more on his statement of not going into a fight with the this is a fight attitude.
One final thank you to all of you serving our country and have served to make this nation a safe place to live. I am honored to hopefully be serving by your side after I get out of boot camp for the Marine Core on August 24 of this year.

[#22 Posted by: Frank Castle]

I work as a doorman currently but was a military policeman for 5 years in th4e CAF. Number 1 rule if you're left no choice...make sure your strikes break bones...EVERYTIME. A drunk might not feel as much pain as when he's sober but he won't be fighting if his leg's broke.

[#23 Posted by: Finlay J. Beaton]

As a 10 year bouncer, I would suggest first alerting the doormen. They will appreciate your input and generally deal with the offensive person, especially if he is offending a colleague, by ejecting him. If further complications erupt before they deal with it, they will be predisposed to come in on your side. It is far too easy to kill a person so any such engagement should be begun only if you see no other reasonable option.

[#24 Posted by: 89west]

Avoidance of people, places and things with the gin mill mindset.
It takes little to go from above the cut off to mast.
Don't let yourself become the real victim and live with 30 seconds of machoman fame and a career has been.

[#25 Posted by: aramis]

I believe what Jeff is saying is; we represent the U.S. Government and we should practice self countrole. Everyone should practise safety. My EGO gets in the way when African Americans don't consider me a person of color. My ego comes from me being a person of color and mixed with several races. My ego allways makes me dispute the issue but I don't swing the dispute into a brawl. I practice self countrole. I regret how my ego has made me respond carelessly in the past. It wouldn't be smart of me to make the same mistake again and again. The wrong words slip out my mouth when I speek before I think. The lesson I learned is to drop my ego because all it does is pull me down.

[#26 Posted by: studframer56]

I agree with getting the bouncers involved. I had an issue where a drunk was starting some crap with my wife! I notified the bouncer that if this person was not removed he might not see the sun rise again. Shortly after that the bouncers talked to him then escorted him to my wife where he told my wife he was sorry and then was escorted out. I explained to the bouncers I was military and trained to take care of business but I did not want trouble or be arrested. One thing to remember judges find out you are military and they might rule against you saying that you are trained and therefore should have stopped the fight before serious injury happened. It happened to a buddy of mine.

[#27 Posted by: ken lange]

All great points to make.
I would add another to your list:
When you think the fight is over and the offender finally decides to leave the bar, be extra cautious and observant to your surroundings when you leave the bar two hours later because he will be back and probably with friends just waiting for your exit.

[#28 Posted by: Dan Schmidt]

Enjoy the beer at home, going to bars is looking for trouble, I was busted form PFC to private 9 times in 31Mo. at Ft. Sam for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.I barley avoided a DD.

[#29 Posted by: steve]

I am an EX Navy Airdale, like a lot of you been around the world,been in a few fights, non I have started. I knew a few waitress ladys, and they know how to handle smart ass drunks, the first one I thought I was helping told me thanks but no thanks. I have been honored to be instruted in several of the arts of defense.
And the first thing I was told by all my teachers, it its a war zone,anything gos, only think kill.
anywhere else its cover your back but back out. It,s nice to be a bad ass,and think you can kick anyones ass. That's why it happens so much, too big a head and too much booze. Sorry to say I wouldn't be going to another bar with a bubby that did that it can only continue to happen and the best offense is a good defence,if they can't keep cool even with a few drinks, then they shouldn't be drinking.
I don't know a good sence, as all these men put it that would not tell them this training is not to teach you to fight but to defend yourself. A defender will back away form any confrontation, you only block a punch, or disarm with minamum force. Let the good old boys be good old boys, I prefer to be a better old Man.

[#30 Posted by: Manny]

I disagree with your tips on bar room brawls. Advising someone to "strike first" makes that person the aggressor and not the defender. Furthermore, being the aggressor makes him subject to arrest. I would avoid a fight at all costs, not just over some words. Poor advice.

[#31 Posted by: Ernie Smith]

Escape and evade, I travel a bit overseas and receive training from my company and the US military. None of that training deals with self defense, rather it is with personal protection planning. Limit alcohol, stay aware of your surroundings, have an escape plan. I was at a concert and a banger wanted to start a fight, I said excuse me and turned sharply walking briskly toward security. All the while preparing to take the drunken bozo down.

[#32 Posted by: Manny]

I disagree with your advice to "strike first." Striking first makes one the aggressor and not the defender and subject's one to arrest for having assumed the status of aggressor. I would avoid a physical confrontation at all costs unless it involves the potential for serious bodily harm or death and not just over some "words." Very poor advice for our troops.

[#33 Posted by: GWL]

There is an old rule in Law Enforcement. Never draw your weapon unless you have grounds to use it. If you do not have justification, it just gets in the way. The same philosophy applies to fights. Don't get involved in a fight unless you intend to do serious damage. If you are fighting to "teach a lesson", you are taking unnecessary chances with your future.

[#34 Posted by: pat]

this is not right at all. you guys are fighting for our country and you guys come up with this stuff it is not right at all and you guys should be asamd of your selfs for even thinking like that

[#35 Posted by: Terry]

75% of Americans live in a world where they feel that nothing bad, or violent, will ever happen to them. NONE of them have any military background, so they don't know any self defense, other than to call the police when something happens. They don't want to learn how to protect themselves. They feel that it is someone else's job to do that. I have been in many court rooms and listened to judges tell people that the police are there to protect them and that they are wrong to try to 'take matters into their own hands'. However, the police are the first to tell you that they can't be everywhere and, by the time they arrive, 90% of the altercations are already over. We, as a nation, which is becoming increasingly violent, need to know how to protect ourselves, our family and friends. The unfortunate part about it, is that our modern society is so attuned to believing that people who fight, for whatever reason, are wrong, that we are branded as criminals before they even know the facts.
When I was in Jr. High School, I was a skinny, malnutritioned kid who weighed around 65 lbs. One of the other students, who was 2 years older, weighed around 220 lbs. He picked on me unmercifully for 3 years and the teachers did nothing to stop him. Finally, I had enough and beat him senseless. His parents sued me and won a judgement, because the judge said that I should not have 'taken matters into my own hands', even though I had asked for help for 3 years. This kid was as tall sitting in a wheelchair, which was only there to evoke sympathy, as I was standing up. I spent time in the detention home until, after an appeal, the sentence was reversed and I was released. It ruined my reputation and my aspirations to enter the military. (Remember, sealed records are NOT sealed. They are still out there if someone knows where to look.) I guess the moral is, 'Either get your ass kicked and be a wuss and a 'good' guy, by not fighting, or defend yourself and take the chance of getting a jury that lives in their little pristine world where 'everything is good''. Personally, I am going to take the risk and defend myself, my family and my friends!

[#36 Posted by: Sauce]

Great comments everyone. However remember one key thing... That is to be aware of your surroundings and the people when you LEAVE the bar/club. I've seen it where several times right before the bar/club closes that there will be an altercation and one party gets escorted out. Needless to say this party goes out to the parking lot and waits for the other party to exit. Then the unexpecting party gets "jumped". Also keep this in mind as well...You don't know what the other person is capable of doing and may go to the car and retrieve a weapon. Firearm, knife or whatever. There are a lot of young people out there that may feel the need to prove themself to some type of "group" or "gang". Remember: "Stay Alert, Stay Alive"

[#37 Posted by: Derek Radoski]

Good advice. Avoid fighting at all costs. That being said it is not a reality. I have had my fair share of my group acting a fool and being drug into a brawl. I also have had the random alcohol induced tough guy who wanted to show how tough he is deciding on me. Seems like people always want to show how tough they are by picking out the wrong person. I also have bounced and bartended and have listened for the infamous sound of broken glass and fists a flying. My advice when the ball is called and the brawl is on. Knock the fool who started out first. Usually this individual will want to go face to face with you or push you. When he tries to chest you up. Fire first typically a right cross and aim for the back of their head as you drive your fist into there face. Once you drop him keep your balance and wait until he is off balance and trying to get up then kick his teeth out. Make sure along the way you tear his shirt. Cops always arrest the person with the tore shirt. Then get you head on a swivel / back to a wall and explain quickly and diffuse the bouncers who typically are also itching to have a green light to show how tough they are. Gather your friends and get into a cab as quickly as you can. Do not hang out around the club bar after. This is when a weapon is typically used on you because they realize they can’t win with their fists.

[#38 Posted by: Sgt. Rob Kreis]

To all the "barracks lawyers",
Quit reading into it. Read the squiggly lines and take it for what it says. Bar fights are no different from any other fight.
Be aware of your surroundings, be ready at all times, do what has to be done. Simple laws, simple rules
Basic etiquette goes to show that the bulk of you are nothing but legs. Get your head out of your forth point of contact!!!

[#39 Posted by: Dale]

20 years served. Enlisted 1979 at the ripe old age of 17. The US Army owned my ass. Spent a million bucks teaching me how to jump out of perfectly good aircraft at Benning, and finally how to kill people. They spent another million teaching me how not to. Three combat deployments and various 'exercises' later, I learned that I did not particularly enjoy killing people. I avoid confrontations now. In fact, I don't even discuss my military experience with non-vets. I get sick and tired of, "Oh wow, you were a Ranger?!! Man, I bet you're some bad ass dude!" How do you explain to some pusgutted nonqual that it is simply a job, not some ninja suited Christians In Action black op's whizbang. We all who served have the memories of the dead we left behind us. The light leaving their eyes. I simply walk away now. I will take a blow and not return it. It simply is not worth the trouble and I left my pride somewhere in the jungles of Panama, or perhaps on the bombed out streets of Beruit, long ago. I have nothing to prove. I have been there when men have tried to kill me and I am still alive and they are not. Those who said as much are correct, one blow can change your life. We, as trained combat soldiers, are professional killers, for lack of a better descriptive. There is nothing macho about it. As I said, it is simply a job. Anyway, go with God, each and every one of you fine men. Keep our Brothers in the SandBox in your mind and prayers. I love y'all!

[#40 Posted by: Boss Spearman]

In all fights, don't forget that hidden gun! You might think it's a fight but he or she just might put a hole in you from fifteen feet away.

[#41 Posted by: MSG L.R.Vickers (RET)]

You neglected to mention, don't wait for the MP's or cops.

[#42 Posted by: carlos j melendez]

Stopped getting in fights when I got out of high school. So when you go to the club and you see something that doesn't set right with you, tell management, continue drinking. If you have to speak to the person who's being the jerk, then you're words must be effective enough to convince him to stop. If you don't think what you say will stop the hero, then continue drinking. I've told my two sons, when I was growing up you could get in a fight and generally end up with the other guy giving up or shaking hands. Now a days, even if you're right, you pay some price which is not good. Morale of the story. Don't fight. If you must fight, then you will lose a lot more than you want or need to lose. Headwork! Su Tzu established some ideas to live by. There is only one reason to fight. To totally dominate and gain complete submission. Other wise, you eliminate the adversary and there's only one scenario where you can do that, under the protection of legal authority.

Good guys not only have to be tough, you have to be smart.

No broken bones, no noses, or been in jail or sued after 69 years of walking the planet.

Old Guy in Florida.

[#43 Posted by: steve]

Fire the waitress or interview her . WHY! She either knows the drunk and he tips her well for taking his abuse or there is some relationship. SHE if offended should have went to the bar staff.
Bar Patrons for some reason, think they are helping by interacting, they do not, they escalate the issue. But we bartenders make them that way, so the burden is on us. I blame the waitress/barmaid.
I only have been in the bar biz for 30 years and still haven't seen it all, just when you think it is over something new pops up. Have a great day.

[#44 Posted by: earl Gregory]

This was a situation for the bouncer to handle.However once a friend has commited,we have to cover his 6.

[#45 Posted by: brian]

The post a few above me mentions Sun Tzu and he is right on. It takes more courage to walk away from a fight. Fight only when absolutely necessary. I can empathize with the story, but there is another post from a guy who defended himself and got sent to detention school - and he was only a high school kid. Get in a fight with the wrong stranger, land a blow a little too effectively and you could find yourself at the end of a lawsuit that will also effectively end your way of life and perhaps land you in prison for a long time. I am also wondering from the qualifications of the writer - could you or your buddy be classified as a deadly weapon? If that is the case, a barfight with a drunken stranger with bad manners and a foul mouth turns into assault and battery with a deadly weapon. The outcome for the knight in shining armor would not be pretty.

[#46 Posted by: Brimstone]

Given that all the buffarillas in Watertown need to maintain at least 40% bodyfat to survive the Upstate winter your "buddy" was both an A**hole and stupid. She had the weight advantadge AND the drink tray: if she wanted to she would have taken the guy out right with one whack. You're just lucky she didn't take both of you down for messing with her man.

[#47 Posted by: Brimstone]

Watertown need to maintain at least 40% bodyfat to survive the Upstate winter your "buddy" was both an A**hole and stupid. She had the weight advantadge AND the drink tray: if she wanted to she would have taken the guy out right with one whack. You're just lucky she didn't take both of you down for messing with her man.

[#48 Posted by: ONTIME]

The other thing that seems to have been missed is as much as it may have bothered your friend, he owed the non complaining waitress nothing, she too had the benefit of the bouncers. Law suits can be hard news for Gallahad.

Drink responsibly and look out for the dipwads who can't.

[#49 Posted by: beastie]

For "martial artists": if your instinct was to, at some point, land a blow, maybe to prove something, then maybe your training has not been adequate. With great ability should come great control and restraint. Self-defense starts with not being in a situation where you'd find yourself defending your health or life. Also, the legal implications of self-defense should be part of your curriculum in your place of training. As mentioned before, it takes a greater man to walk away. Yielding does not mean weakness.

On the original post, I think that the friend, Mike, is a jerk. He went about things in a way that will do nothing but provoke.

As for the 5 rules and various advice, the only one that made sense was to do the GFO (get the ef out). The other rules will land you in prison (or leave you penniless as you have to ante up for that lawyer). Is it really worth the thrill of the fight?

On the unknown factors (hidden weapons, friends of the guy you're against, bystanders): you are probably not gonna see the fist/foot/knife/bullet/glass/bottle that hits you and ends your imaginary macho man fantasy.

[#50 Posted by: Larry Schwarm]

I am an old guy, a sailor from the late 60's.
The waitresses in those establishments can handle the dumbshits with ease. Very practiced. If they are in trouble the equivalent of "Hey Rube" goes out and Mr. Dumbshit is handled as kindly as his inebreation allows. Stay out of it unless physical harm is immenent.